Mike Bergman at SBC Voices questions the current resume’ system. Although I do not completely agree with the article, I found the article thought-provoking. Here is an excerpt:
You can’t really get to know a person through a resume and a handful of meetings. Not to mention the fact that some (many?) committees focus on the wrong things off the resume such as education, marital status, and experience (it’s amazing how often churches know from the start that God’s man is not a single dude with no seminary training and no prior pastoral experience. It reminds me of a resume I once saw of a young man who was married but fell into the other two categories. He had on his resume: “I’m just looking for somebody to give me a chance.” It’s sad that we have to think that way).
I can resonate with the above statement. I don’t know how many times I’ve thought about telling search committees that I’m just looking for someone to give me a chance; especially in my younger days. You can read the rest of this thought-provoking article here.
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Jared
Interesting comments about reumes’ and “Hiring Pastosr” at SBC Voices.
Seems most know the system is broken.
Don’t know if you saw it? But here’s the comment I placed there.
Mike
Thanks for questioning “The Religious System” and how it operates.
You ask…
“Hiring Pastors: Is It Working?”
From your stats, your conclusion, and the comments here,
seems most are dissatisfied with the process and /or the results
and admit the system is broken.
Lot’s of ideas here on fixing the process of “Hiring Pastors.”
Before fixing the process couldn’t we ask the questions this way…
**Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,” is this a “Title” and “Position”
found in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many people… have the “Title” pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… “led” by a pastor?
And every pastor I’ve met also has the “Title” Reverand.
In the Bible, does anyone have the “Title” Reverand?
If this “Title” and “Position,” “Pastor/Leader,” is NOT in the Bible?
Then “Resume’s,” “Search Committes,” finding and
“Hiring Pastors,” would be NOT biblical and NOT nessesary. Yes?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed and be a blessing.
Jared
This was Mike’s return comment…
———————-
I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at…
But when it comes to titles, “pastor” is used in Eph 4:11 along with prophet, apostle, evangelist, and teacher–all of which functioned as titles, and the same word is used (as well as the word for overseeing) in 1 Peter 5:1-4 in describing “elders”. Granted, to be technical, the title of “elder” is used the most, but it is clear from its descriptions that elders are to pastor/shepherd under Jesus who is the Chief Shepherd. We have no exact number because Paul and Peter sometimes used the term broadly but quite a few men are called “elders” in the NT. In modern history, especially as Baptists, we’ve just replaced the old title w/ the term “pastor.” Maybe it’s not as biblically precise as “elder” but I don’t think it’s biblically wrong either to use the terms interchangably.
All the congregations that are described with detail in the NT are led/shepherded/pastored by elders.
And there are referrences in places like 1 Timothy of “laying on of hands” which is where we get the idea of an ordination (though biblically we are not giving details of what all took place with this practice, though it signifies something about the men since Paul warns not to lay on hands to quickly).
—————————–
And My answer to Mike
—————————–
Mike
You write…
“I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at…“
What I’m driving at, and I think you’re agreeing with me, is…
The “Title” and “Position” “Pastor/Leader” is NOT found in scripture.
I think you’re agreeing with me because you write…
“In modern history, especially as Baptists, we’ve just replaced the
old title w/ the term “pastor.” (Replaced? Tradition of men?)
Do you think that’s a good idea for man to change the scripture?
IMO – That’s why “Hiring Pastors,” doesn’t work. It’s NOT in the Bible.
NO Pastors – in pulpits – preaching – to people – in pews.
NO one is called “Pastor” and NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor.”
Can you name one congregation “Led” by a “Pastor?” In the Bible…
And didn’t Jesus warn us about “The Traditions of Men” in Mark 7:13.
KJV – Making the word of God of **none effect** through your tradition…
ASV – Making **void** the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you **nullify** the word of God by your tradition…
And Jesus, in Mat 23:10 KJV, told “His Disciples” Not to be called
Master/Leader for you have “ONE” Master/Leader, even Christ.
King James Version -
Neither be ye called masters:
for “ONE” is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible -
Nor be called leaders,
for “ONE” is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English -
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only “ONE” leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version -
nor should you be called leader.
your “ONE” and only leader is the Messiah.
Jesus told **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they NO?LONGER a “Disciple of Christ?” Oy Vey!!!
Or, are they just a **disobediant** “Disciple of Christ?”
Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Jesus loves me and forgives me all my sin.
Love,
I actually agree with Mike. What do you do with the pastoral epistles? What do you do with the title “elder”? Are you against the title of “elder” as well? Also, do you believe Jesus’ words are more valuable than Paul’s words? The author of Hebrews of well tells his reads to submit “to those that have the rule over you” (Heb. 13:7,17, 23-24). Timothy is mentioned by name in the same context (v.23-24). Are elders supposed to lead their congregations? How do you interpret such passages?
Jared
Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.
I’ll get to Heb 13, “to those that have the rule over you” in a l’il bit.
It was a lengthy process coming to the understanding I have today.
I was in “Leadership” and did my fair share of “Exercising Authority.”
Did my fair share of “Lording it Over” God’s heritage.
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
The conclusion came thru lot’s of pain, tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.”
Caused me to ask different questions and research the scriptures.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
1 – “What do you do with the pastoral epistles?”
I believe the Bible is “The Word of God” just the way it’s written.
All epistles are important. Also the Gospels and what Jesus said.
What do “you” mean by “pastoral” and “pastoral epistles?”
Some say, 1st+2nd Timothy and Titus are “pastoral epistles.”
The Bible says nothing about Timothy and Titus being “pastors,”
or, them being anything like **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader.”
“pastoral epistles” is NOT a term found in the scriptures.
Why use terms, and words, NOT found in the scriptures?
Why aren’t the words written in the scriptures good enough?
IMO – fancy words and non-biblical words are made up by man to
control and “manipulate” folks.
2 – What do you do with the title “elder”?
“Are you against the title of “elder” as well?
“Are elders supposed to lead their congregations?”
I can find nothing in the NT where an “elder” leads a congregation.
I can find nothing in the NT where an “elder” = “leader.”
IMO – That’s man wanting to control and “manipulate” folks.
All “Disciples of Christ” called themselves “Servants.”
I don’t believe the Bible uses “elder” as a “Title.”
Elder Amos, or, Elder Jared. Even sounds funny. Yes?
And “elder” in the Bible is used many different ways.
Sometimes recognized for Spiritual maturity and examples to the flock.
Sometimes recognized as a human, man or women, who is older in age.
Seems when “elders” were ordained, they were already eldering.
Everyone in the congregation knew them as “Servants of Christ.”
They were “overseeing” the flock, NOT?leading, like, I’m the boss.
And there are some tuff qualifications for being an “elder.”
The Bible talks about bishops and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can’t have one without the other. Yes?
3 – “do you believe Jesus’ words are more valuable than Paul’s words?
No!
I believe you understand Paul’s words when looking at what
Jesus taught, NOT ignoring either.
For example, Jesus taught that God will teach you “All” things…
And “His disciples” were NOT to be called teacher…
It is written in the prophets, And **they shall be all taught of God.**
John 6:45
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, **he shall teach you** all things…
John 14:26
But be not ye called *Rabbi: (teacher) for ”ONE”
is your *Master, (teacher) even Christ;
Matthew 23:8
And **Today** we have “The Religious System” with many “teachers,”
in pulpits, sunday school, seminaries, Bible studies, calling themselves
teacher and **ignoring what Jesus said** “don’t be called teacher.”
Because – Paul, in Eph 4:11. says,
God gave some, shepherds and teachers…
So here we seem to have a conflict.
Who’s word do you think is more important?
Or, how can we reconcile this conflict? Hmmm?
Here are some questions to think about.
“What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
“How” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
“What” did Jesus teach? “How” did Jesus teach?
Today, “the Religious System” has convinced the people
to look to man to teach them and NOT to Jesus.
Seems to me “The Religious System” of **Today** looks more
at what Paul writes about then what Jesus said.
Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
IMO – They ignore Jesus when it doesn’t fit well with their tradition.
In His Service. by His Grace.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Jared
“What” did Jesus teach? “
Seems Jesus taught “His Disciples” to teach “What” He taught them.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
**teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.**
Mat 28:19:20 NIV
If the word “Disciple” means – learner, student? Then…
A “Disciple of Christ” = A learner, student, learning directly from Christ.
Jesus taught “His Disciples”
1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10
3 – ALL shall be taught of God. Jn 6:45
4 – ALL things, shall be taught you by the Holy Spirit, God. Jn 14:26
5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. Jn 16:13
6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. Jn 8:28
7 – Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God,
received the revelation from Father God, and NOT from man. Mt 16:17
NOT even Jesus, as man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.
John the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.
1 – ALL know, discern, all things. From the anointing in you. 1 Jn 2:20
2 – You need not any man teach you. Some will seduce you. 1 Jn 2:26:27
3 – ALL things, are taught to you by the anointing. 1 Jn 2:27
Paul the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.
1- The gospel, NOT taught to me by man, but by revelation. Ga 1:11,12
2 – I conferred NOT with flesh and blood. Ga 1:16
3 – You have heard Jesus, and have been taught by Jesus. Eph 4:21
4 – You are taught by God to love one another. 1 Thes 4:9
5 – When together, all can teach, all can get revelation. 1 Cor 14:26
6 – Be led by the Spirit of God, and be a son of God. Rm 8:14
“What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
When Paul said, – and some **shepherds and teachers**
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ. Eph 4:11
I don’t see Paul having any thoughts about once a week…
Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
Then a week goes by and most has been forgotten. If even heard.
Is that “How” Jesus taught? Wasn’t He “daily” with “His Disciples?”
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he eats daily, for life.
Pastor/teachers in pulpits “create” pew potatoes, always hungry, lazy.
The Pastor/Teacher makes a name for himself, a reputation, BUT…
**man now looks to man** for learning, revelation, and NOT to Jesus.
Teach a man to hear from Jesus, learn from Jesus, revelation from Jesus…
You have, “Disciples of Christ.” Learners of Christ. Ekklesia of Christ.
Now Jesus can feed, lead, and teach them “daily,” forever, Eternity…
Jesus learned directly from God. Revelation.
Peter learned directly from God. Revelation.
Paul learned directly from God. Revelation.
Jesus taught, God will teach you.
John taught, God will teach you.
Paul taught, God will teach you.
“What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
“What’ were the “elders” who were to teach supposed to teach?
Did they just give the people already chewed on fish? Their revelation?
The denominations I believes? What they learned in seminary?
The five points of Calvin?
Or, did they teach, get it yourself from Jesus? And how to get it?
And they did nothing of themselves but what they saw the Father doing?
Like Jesus, Peter, and Paul?
If you’re being equipped for the ministry?
Wouldn’t it be important to, hear and learn from Jesus, directly, NOW?
Wouldn’t it be important to, be led by the Spirit of God, directly, NOW?
Might not be able to wait for an appointment with the Clergy.
If and when using scripture “His Disciples” might have quoted the OT.
I (God) will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go: I (God) will guide thee with mine eye.
Psalms 32:8
Out of heaven he (God) made thee to **hear His voice,**
that he (God) might instruct thee:
Deuteronomy 4:36
Trust in the LORD (God) with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, (God)
and HE (God) shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5-6
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD (God) directeth his steps.
Proverbs 16:9
…the meek will he (God) teach his way.
Psalms 25:9
…he (God) will teach us of his ways, and will walk in his (God’s) paths…
Isaiah 2:3
“What” did Jesus teach? “
Isn’t that what “we,” “His Disciples,” are to teach?
{{{ Jesus }}} always has a better way for teaching, and leading, “His Sheep.”
Jared
Appreciate the conversation and your passion.
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:16
You write…
“The author of Hebrews of well tells his reads to submit
“to those that have the rule over you” (Heb. 13:7,17, 23-24).
I have a few thoughts about Heb 13. I’m very familiar with it. Oy Vey!!!
Used to teach it when “Leadership” and “ being in control” was important.
I struggled with what I was taught in “The Abusive Religious System.”
I’ve looked at Heb 13, and “Spiritual Abuse,” often, since the early 90’s.
When you’re in an “Abusive” relationship it’s difficult to reason “Truth.”
Even in the natural, the “Abused” often defends the “Abuser.”
So in the Spiritual. I used to defend those who “Spiritually Abused” me.
Not till you leave, and some healing takes place, can you see much at all.
But God… is faithful…
…Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
John 18:37
Here’s how I started to see Heb 13:17 after leaving “The System.”
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
**for they watch for “your” souls,** (that sounds personal)
as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy,
and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Heb 13:17
1 – First qualification for me, on who to obey and submit to, became…
**Who watches for my soul.** Who knows me and cares about me.
In my experience…
Those who are “Spiritually Abusive” preach “Obey your leaders” a lot.
But didn’t spend much time with me… Getting to know me… and…
**Keeping watch over my soul.**
“Spirtuall Abusers” want passive pew potatoes to pay, pray and obey.
They are building a tower to heaven and making a name for themselves.
In reading, over and over again, I noticed – NO “Titles” or “Positions”
mentioned in Heb 13. NO pastors, NO elders, NO overseers.
Just someone who was **keeping watch over “My” soul.**
I also noticed, “Spiritually Abusive Leaders” when questioned,
or disagreed with, no longer considered “my” soul important.
What was important was “being in control,” “being THE authority,”
“me obeying them,” “me submitting to them.” NOT my soul.
They would label me, call me names or attempt to put me down.
1 – First qualification for me, on who to obey and submit to, became…
**Who watches for my soul.**
If they’re NOT watching for my soul… Or your soul…
They don’t have “The Rule Over” me, or you, or anyone.
Does anyone have to obey and submit to…
Someone who is NOT keeping watch over your soul?
Someone who is “Abusive Authority” wanting to be in control?
NOT anymore – thank you Jesus…
Jesus warned about “The Religious Leaders.”
Beware – they say one thing and do another.
More coming…
Jesus loves me… and forgives me all my sin
Jared
“Abusive Leaders” want you to pay, pray, and “obey.”
But don’t spend a lot of time with…
1 – Neither as being lords over God’s heritage,
but being **ensamples to the flock.**
1Pet 5:3
The second list of qualifications, for who to obey, and submit to, became…
1 – Are they living examples of – NOT lording it over Disciples of Christ?
2 – Are they living examples of – lowliness of mind?
3 – Are they living examples of – esteeming others better than themselves?
4 – Are they living examples of – submitting One to Another?
5 – Are they living examples of – preferring others before themselves?
6 – Are they living examples of – being clothed with humility?
7 – Are they living examples of – NOT exercising authority over believers?”
2 + 3 – Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in
**lowliness of mind** let each **esteem others** better than themselves.
Php 2:3
4 – **Submitting yourselves one to another** in the fear of God.
Eph 5:21
5 – Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
**in honour preferring one another.**
Rom 12:10
6 + 4 – “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.”
Yea, **all of you** be subject **one to another,** (subject = submit)
and be **clothed with humility:** for God resisteth the proud,
and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pet 5:5
Then Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to **Exercise Authority.**
7 – …they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles
**exercise lordship over them; **
and their great ones **exercise authority upon them.**
But so shall it NOT be among you:…
Mark 10:42-45
Ever try pointing out these verses to a Senior Pastor who is addicted to
Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, and Reputation?
Who’s “Title” is an “Idol?” (Idols of the heart. Ezek 14:1 -11)
Ouch!!! ;-(
In my experience with “Pastor/Leaders”…
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much a servant, eventually…
They will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s sheep.
That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.”
“Pastor/Leaders” = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
If an “elder/shepherd” “Exercises Authority” and “lords it over?”
Doesn’t that automatically disqualify them from that “Position?”
Do they ever remove themselves?
More coming… Next is qualifications for elders…
Now there are NO elders spoken about in Heb 13. BUT…
If an “Elder/Overseer” doesn’t meet the qualifications… Now what?
Would you, or anyone, have to “Obey” and “Submit” to that “elder?”
I’m in agreement with David – The Lord is m Shepherd – Jesus…
Love,
it sounds like bad pastors have caused you to re-interpret plain texts. In 1 Timothy 2:7, Paul calls himself a teacher of the Gentiles. Furthermore, the reality with progressive revelation is that more truth is revealed as it progresses; thus, instead of interpreting Paul in light of Jesus, you should interpret Jesus in light of Paul. Paul was an eyewitness of Christ; and he was carried along by God the Holy Spirit as he wrote Scripture. Because he calls himself teacher, you should understand that Jesus meant “master” in Matthew 23 instead of teacher; or, Jesus meant that they should not carry as much authority as Him; or, that Rabbi’s at the time Jesus said this were the absolute authority on earth, and Jesus’ disciples authority was not absolute. Also, if the apostles were not teachers, then why don’t we throw out the entire New Testament? If they did not carry divine authority, why should we submit to the Scriptures as if the human authors had authority to teach? If they were not teachers, then should we allow them to teach us? Romans 12:7 commands us to teach if we have the spiritual gift, but you still say we shouldn’t use the title?
I find it ironic that you against titles such as teacher, but you are posting this entire time trying to teach me?
Also, in quoting 1 Peter 5:1-4, you left out the command for elders to shepherd the flock, to exercise oversight (v.1). Then, we are commanded not to lord over them. A pastor is to lead God’s church; they are His undershepherds, in under the Shepherd. Doesn’t a shepherd lead, protect, and serve the sheep?
Concerning Heb. 13, in light of the rest of Scripture, in light of 1 Peter 5, who watches out for the souls of the congregation? Who has authority over them as their shepherds in under Christ’s authority?
Love, you seem to be ignoring plain biblical references to authority in the local church. Paul, in almost every New Testament letter, argues in favor of his own authority over the churches as an apostle.
I’m enjoying the discussion; what say you?
Jared
Hmmm? More intriguing thoughts and questions.
I’ll try to answer them later. Still haven’t finished with those who want
you to “Obey” and “Submit” to them as “God Ordained Authority.”
You mention Paul and “Progressive Revelation.” (new term for me.) ??
Didn’t Paul give qualifications for “elder/overseer?”
Are “difficult” qualifications for “elders” “Progressive Revelation?”
Why did Paul give qualifications for “elder/overseer” if not important?
Which qualifications are NOT important?
Which qualifications, of Paul, can we ignore?
I’ve noticed, most today don’t give much attention to qualifications.
I find no place in scripture where “elder/overseer” = “Leader.” Boss.
You seem to think “elder/overseer” = “Leaders.” Maybe you’re correct.
For me…
(3) “The third” list of qualifications of who to “Obey” and “Submit” to
are given by Paul. Thank you Jesus. We have a guide…
If someone says they are an “elder/leader?” “God Ordained Autority?”
BUT, can NOT meet the qualifications Paul gave for “elder/leader…
Will they remove themself from that position? Give up their “Titles?”
Do I, or you, or anyone have to “Obey” and “Submit” to them who
proclaim “ I have the rule over you,” if they can NOT qualify?
Or, have we been taught to “Obey” those with the “Title?” Oy vey!
Paul’s qualifications condensed from Titus 1, and 1st Tim 3.
For a bishop, overseer, elder, **must be**
1 – **blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
3 – rules well his own house — have an obedient family and children.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
And their children must qualify also…
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”
15 – faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
………an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.
That’s a tough list of qualifications. Yes?
Do you, with your children, qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
If someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?
The Bible talks about “elders” and qualifications for “elder/overseer.”
Can you have one with out the other?
If someone says they are an “elder/leader?” “God Ordained Autority?”
BUT, can NOT meet the qualifications Paul gave for “elder/leader…
Do I, or you, or anyone have to “Obey” and “Submit” to them?
Not anymore -Thank you Jesus…
They’re NOT really “elders.” Hmmm? What are they?
Seems, False apostles, False prophets, False teachers, come to mind.
So, for me…
(3) “The third” list of qualifications of who to “Obey” and “Submit” to
are given by Paul.
Thank you Jesus for Paul’s “Progressive Revelation.”
Still more to come. A little word study for Heb 13:17.
Jesus… the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
Love,
I agree that a pastor must meet the qualifications in the Scriptures in order to be an elder. I however disagree with that he must be married since Paul himself was an elder, but was not married. In light of this, Paul must have meant that if they are married, they must be a one woman man. Also, the Bible does not say that their children must be believers. It does say that they must be in submission; but, if you believe that all of their children must be believers for them to be qualified to pastor, then you eliminate almost every patriarch in the Old Testament as qualified to pastor. Furthermore, does a pastor really have control over the salvation of his children? Certainly not! It would be a requirement that he ultimately has no control over.
If you believe that a pastor is disqualified from ministry, then you need to exercise biblical discipline (1. 1 on 1, 2. with witnesses, 3. before the church). Also, you’d better be sure that he’s not qualified. You’d better make sure that he is blatantly sinning; otherwise, if you don’t follow his leadership, then you are sinning.
Finally, I’ve noticed in your posts that you keep referencing “Me and Jesus.” It appears that you overemphasize the individual nature of salvation, while minimizing the corporate nature of salvation as well. When we are transformed by Christ, He places us in a large body, and expects us to be part of a local body. We then use our spiritual gifts to build up His church. Jesus doesn’t only lead you, but is also leading all other Christians. Our theological understandins should be tested in the local body by other believers that have the same Holy Spirit that we do.
When you have time, can you answer this question: Are there any leaders in the local church? I believe that the church should be pastor lead, deacon served, and church approved. Pastors have authority to lead; and church’s have authority to approve (there seems to be tension in the Scriptures between the body leading and pastors leading in the local church under the authority of Chirst). However, the idea that there is no leadership in the local church is foreign to the New Testament.
Jared
You write…
“I agree that a pastor must meet the qualifications in the Scriptures
in order to be an elder.”
Praise God – That’s something we agree on. Pheeeew!!! BUT…
Which qualifications are NOT important?
Which qualifications, of Paul, can we ignore?
I’ve noticed, most today don’t give much attention to qualifications.
Let’s look at 3 qualifications for “Elder/Overseer.” And **Must be.**
“Must be” – “Blameless” – “Just” – “Holy.”
A bishop then **must be** **blameless**
1 Tim 3:2
**If** any be **Blameless**
For a bishop **must be** ** blameless**
Titus 1:6-7
a bishop/overseer **Must be** (Twice, sounds important.)
Strongs #1163 dei {die} third person singular active present of 1210;
KJV – must 58, ought 31, must needs 5, should 4, misc 7, vr ought 1
1) it is necessary, there is need of, it behooves, is right and proper.
1d) a necessity of law and command, of duty, equity.
***1e) necessity established by the counsel and decree of God,***
1e1) concerning what Christ was destined finally to undergo, his
… sufferings, death, resurrection, ascension
Webster’s – express compulsion, obligation, requirement, or necessity.
This **must be** sounds important , NOT to be ignored, because it is…
The same **must be** in John 3:7 …Ye **must be** [ 1163 ] born again.
***1e) necessity established by the counsel and decree of God,***
**Blameless** (three times, sounds important.)
Strongs #423 anepileptos from 1 and a derivative of 1949;
KJV – blameless 2, unrebukeable 1; 3
1) not apprehended, that cannot be laid hold of
2) cannot be, reprehended, rebukable, reprovable, **cannot find fault,**
**not open to censure** **, irreproachable.**
Webster’s – Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure;
synonyms – faultless, guiltless, innocent, spotless, unblemished.
…a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, **just,** ** holy**
Titus 1:8
**Just**
Strongs #1342 dikaios from 1349;
KJV – righteous 41, just 33, right 5, meet 2.
1) righteous, **observing divine laws**
1a) upright, righteous, virtuous, **keeping the commands of God**
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
… who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined.
1a2) **innocent, faultless, guiltless.**
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
… **is wholly conformed to the will of God,**
… and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
1a3a) only Christ truly
**Holy**
Strongs #3741 hosios
KJV – holy 4, Holy One 2, mercies 1, shall be 1; 8
1) **undefiled by sin,** ** free from wickedness,**
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
Hmmm? “Must be” – “Blameless” – “Just” – “Holy.”
Why did Paul give qualifications for “elder/overseer” if not important?
You write…
“You’d better make sure that he is **blatantly sinning; **otherwise,
if you don’t follow his leadership, then you are sinning.”
“blatantly sinning” ??? Nope. Not about “blatantly sinning”
It’s about NOT qualifying. “Must be” – “Blameless” – “Just” – “Holy.”
Now, if you “know” you don’t qualify for “Elder/Bishop?”
“Must be” – “Blameless” – “Just” – “Holy.”
And you take the “Title” and “Position” anyway?
“Knowing you don’t meet the qualifications.”
Or, you have the “Title” and “Position” and you realize that
you don’t meet the qualifications for elder NOW, or NEVER DID,
And you do NOT remove yourself from the “Title” and “Position?”
Then I guess that would be “blatantly sinning” Oy Vey!!!
What “leadership” does an elder/overseer have?
If he doesn’t qualify for elder/overseer?
I vote – NONE
Would “you”“ follow someone who said they were a “Leader”
and you knew they didn’t qualify for “Blameless” – “Just” – “Holy?”
What else are they deceiving you about?
That’s some tough qualifications. Yes?
Do you, with your children, qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
If someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?
The Bible talks about “elders” and qualifications for “elder/overseer.”
Can you have one with out the other?
Jesus love me this I know…
Jared
I’ve heard that Paul meant “a one women man” if married.
Isn’t that the same argument Rome uses for it’s priest’s being celibate?
If an elder doesn’t have to be married. We have also to ignore this…
How can a single fit this qualification; “3 – rules well his own house —
have an obedient family and children.” if he’s not married?
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children
in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to
rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1 Tim 3:4-5
**If** any be blameless, the husband of one wife,
having *faithful children not accused of *riot or *unruly.
Titus 1:6
Seems Paul, in two places, says; husband, one wife, children.
Because , if you can’t be a good husband and father,
how shall you take care of “The Church of God?”
Seems, a “husband/father/elder” is required by Paul.
You say; “the Bible does not say that their children must be believers.”
Paul says; “having *faithful children not accused of *riot or *unruly.”
having **faithful** children -
Strongs # 4103 pistos – from 3982;
KJV- faithful 53, believe 6, believing 2, true 2, faithfully 1, believer 1.
1) trusty, faithful 1a) of persons who show themselves faithful
in the transaction of business, the execution of commands,
or the discharge of official duties
1b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust
1c) that can be relied on
not accused of **riot**
Strongs #810 asotia - from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle)
and a presumed derivative of 4982; sozo – to save
KJV – riot 2, excess 1; 3
1) an abandoned, dissolute life 2) profligacy, prodigality
profligacy – Websters – 1. abandoned to vice; lost to principle,
virtue or decency; vicious; shamless in wickedness.
2. extremly wastful; recklessly extravagant.
Strongs – unsavedness
or **unruly**
Strongs #506 anupotaktos – from 1 (as a negative particle)
and a presumed derivative of 5293;
KJV – unruly 2, disobedient 1, that is not put under 1; 4
1) not made subject, unsubjected
2) that cannot be subjected to control, disobedient, unruly, refractory.
Looks to me, the qualifications of Paul for elder/overseer require…
a husband/father with faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
If he’s NOT a husband/father he can NOT care for “God’s Church.”
Jesus… lover of my soul…
Jared
You write…
“I believe that the church should be pastor lead,
deacon served, and church approved.”
That sounds good in theory, but NOT how it works.
Whose really leading when 1,600 pastors a month are “forced out.”
And, The # 1 reason pastors leave the ministry is; people won’t follow.
This is info from websites helping burned out Pastors.
http://www.pastorcare.org/Past.....ealth.html
• Over 1600 pastors are forced out of their positions each month.
• 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
Think we might have a problem here with “Pastor/Leaders?”
70% of pastors are depressed or burnt out.
70% Don’t have a close friend. Hmmm?
That’s who is running the show. “Pastors/Leaders?”
77% who say they do NOT have a good marriage. Hmmm?
Family NOT in order? Time to remove yourself?
That’s who is “Spiritually Abusing” God’s sheep.
1,600 pastors a month, 19,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That’s a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain.
1,600 families a month being “Abused” by a “Corrupt Religious System.”
Theory’s are nice BUT, This is serious business. Yes?
More statistics…
http://pastoralcareinc.com/Why.....istics.php
# 80% pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…………. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
………….. because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
# 33% state being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
Hmmm? Family NOT in order? Time to remove yourself?
#1 reason pastors leave the ministry — Church people are
NOT willing to go the same direction and goal of the pastor.
But, I’m the leader, says so right her on my diploma, see?
When you live the lie you start to die…
Jesus… the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
Jared
Here’s a list of blog post’s about Heb 13, submission, and leadership.
Alan Knox, is a Baptist, sudying for a PhD at SEBTS. Baptist Seminary.
Makes for an interesting read.
http://www.alanknox.net/?s=Heb.....0&y=0
Here’s my understanding for Heb 13. “have the rule over.”
Heb 13:7
Remember them which have “the rule over you,”
who have spoken unto you the word of God:
whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17
Obey them that have “the rule over you,”
and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls…
Heb 13:24
Salute all them that have “the rule over you,”
and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
The Greek word “hegeomai” is 28 times in the NT.
Only 3 times as, “have the rule over” all in Heb 13.
Moderen translations often use “leader” here.
It is Strongs #2233 hegeomai. In the KJV it is translated,
KJV – count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,
Hegeomai does mean, to lead, it also means “to go before.”
A guide who goes before? – Or – I’m the leader/boss?
Seems the qualification to who we “Obey” and “Submit” to is in
“who have spoken unto you the word of God.” Heb 13:7
“they watch for your souls.” Heb 13:17,
Not a “Title” pastor or a “position” overseer/elder,
BUT, someone who knows you and cares for you.
This hegeomai is being attentive to me.
Speaking the word of God and watching for my soul.
Not demanding that I “Obey” and “Submit” to him.
I’ve spoken the word of God to you. Yes?
And, I’m “watching for your soul.” Whether you believe it or not.
Can I demand that you “Obey” and “Submit” to me?
If they aren’t “watching for your soul” do you “Obey” and “Submit?”
Not anymore. Thank you Jesus.
———-
It’s interesting to me that “hegeomai” “have the rule over,”
is also translated “esteem” 3 times.
Php 2:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in
“lowliness of mind” let each *esteem* other better than themselves.
1Th 5:13
And to *esteem* them very highly in love for their work’s sake…
The same word, “hegeomai,” which many refer to as leader/boss,
(a high place, and Jesus always recommended the low place,)
is used when encouraging those who need to be in “lowliness of mind”
and to “esteem” others better than themselves.
The way I see it now; If someone insists that they are God’s leader,
And they “have the rule over anyone,” then I can check them out
with these quidelines. They need to be in “lowliness of mind”
and “esteeming” others better than themselves.
This “ hegeomai” is different then today’s leader/boss. Yes?
Don’t find many “leaders/pastors/elders” **esteeming others**
better then themselves today. Or submitting one to another.
They seem to want the TOP spot. The honor, the glory.
You can tell which “hegeomai,” “leader/boss,” or “guide/goes before,”
is present when confronted with opposition or a different opinion.
What fruit do we see when today’s “overseer/elder” is challenged;
“Accusation” “ Argument” “Ridicule”“Name Calling” “Put Downs”
or “lowliness of mind?” “Submitting, one to another?”
———-
The Greek word for “Obey” in Heb 13:17 is the root word for faith.
It is Strongs #3982 peitho – pi’-tho and is translated in the KJV as
KJV – persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3,
Hmmm? persuade, trust, have confidence, believe.
Maybe that word “Obey” then, is different
from how we understand “Obey” today. Yes?
The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
Only this time it is NOT obey. The word is TRUST.
Heb 13:18
Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.
Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.
I have *confidence* in you through the Lord.
Maybe we need to go to God and ask Him what
He really means here in Heb 13:17 for “Obey.”
———-
Here is a word study for “peitho” from Rick Saenz, I think a Baptist,
living on a farm in south central Kentucky. Might be near you.
He lists all the scriptures using “pietho.” Interesting read also.
http://drycreekchronicles.word.....dy-peitho/
———-
Here’s Heb 13:17 in the “NKJAV.”
That’s the “New King James Amos Version.”
Heb 13:17
Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in,
those you esteem, as they guide you and think to submit yourselves:
for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul…
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus.
Love,
If pastors must be married, then Paul did not fit his own qualifications, even though he refers to himself as an elder numerous times. It makes no sense; furthermore, Jesus himself could not be an elder today? Furthermore following your logic, a pastor must also have children as well? I meet these qualifications, but it makes no sense to me that Paul was an elder, and yet, unqualified based on your standards?
About your reference to blameless, do you really think that a pastor must be perfect? Is not Paul writing Titus and Timothy, telling them to observe others concerning these qualifications? A pastor must be blameless; he must not be publicly unrepentant. If you think this means “perfect,” then no one is qualified. Paul even withstood Peter to his face in front of others; did this disqualify Peter because “he was to blame?”
I still believe that churches should be pastor-lead, deacon-served, and church-approved. It’s not a theory; it’s what the Bible teaches. Regardless if it’s working or not, the Bible still reigns. Scriptural truth reigns regardless if God’s people are responding or not. The statistics you mention prove nothing other than that churches will not follow pastors; and they are often mean to pastors. Should we be surprised? In many of Paul’s letters, he is defending his right as an apostle; the church wouldn’t follow him either. Furthermore, I believe that I have a good marriage; but, I don’t know why these pastors are saying that they don’t. You shouldn’t jump to the conclusion that they’re now disqualified from ministry. Do they think their marriages should be perfect?
Concerning your reference in Hebrew, you still list “obey,” and “follow.” Yet, in previous posts, you’ve said that there are no “teachers,” or “leaders,” in the church? Im curious, do you belong to a local church? If so, do you follow your pastor(s)?
Jared
You write…
“If pastors must be married, then Paul did not fit his own qualifications,
even though he refers to himself as an elder numerous times.”
I agree, Paul did NOT meet his own qualifications. Did he have to?
Seems, his qualifications for “elders/bishops” were for groups already
gathering, some for many years, and those appointed were known by
those in the group, they were already “eldering,” already “servants.”
IMO – Paul required “Elders” being appointed, to be a husband/father.
NOT “Pastors.”
Does Paul ever refer to the “Title or “Position” of “Pastor/Leader?”
Can you give scripture; where Paul says, “elder” = “Pastor/Leader?”
Can you give scripture; where Paul refers to himself as “Pastor/Leader?”
Can you give “numerous” scripture where Paul calls himself “elder?”
“even though he refers to himself as an elder numerous times.”???
You write…
“do you really think that a pastor must be perfect?”
“I still believe that churches should be pastor-lead.”
What I think, have researched the best I know how, and believe, today,
is subject to change, been deceived before, by others and myself, and
most likely still am deceived, just haven’t figured out where yet,
when you’re deceived you don’t know it.
In my experience…
The “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/leader,” and what
they do, is “Tradition of men” and NOT found in the scriptures.
Pastors is only 9 times in KJV, once in the NT, Eph 4:11,
eight times in Jeremiah, six times God is NOT happy.
In Greek and Hebrew it always refers to “shepherd.”
Here are some verses about leaders and pastors to consider.
For **the leaders** of this people cause thee to err;
and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Isaiah 9:16
… O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isaiah 3:12
The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof
teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money …
Micah 3:11
**the pastors** also transgressed against me,
and the prophets prophesied by Baal,
and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah 2:8
For **the pastors** are become brutish, ( beastly, carnal )
and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper,
and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jeremiah 10:21
**Many pastors** have destroyed my vineyard,
they have trodden my portion under foot,
they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jeremiah 12:10
The wind shall eat up **all thy pastors**…
Jeremiah 22:22
Woe be unto **the pastors**
that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!
Jeremiah 23:1
…thus saith the LORD God of Israel **against the pastors**
**that feed my people;** Ye have scattered my flock,
and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold,
I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:2
My people hath been lost sheep:
**their shepherds** have caused them to go astray,
Jer 50:6
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned
unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
1Pet 2:25
I’ll agree with David when he says…
The Lord is my “Shepherd.” {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Jared
There was a time I was in “leadership,” and was reading all the
“How To” books on being a good leader. There are lots of them.
I left “The Religious System” in the early 90’s,
through much pain, tears, and “Spiritual Abuse” caused by
those who said they had authority from God to lead.
Today I see the danger of “Titles,” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader.”
“Spiritual Abuse” for both the “leader” and those “being led.”
IMO – The “Title” “Pastor/Leader” is very, very, dangerous for both.
In my experience…
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much of a servant, eventually…
Pastor/Leader = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
I now “minister healing” to those who have been “SpirituallyAbused”
by those who took the “Title” and “Position” – “Pastor/Leader.”
Folks who have been **burnt,** ** burnt out,** ** kicked out,**
and **crawled out** of “The Religious System” most call “church.”
with it’s pastor/leaders, submission to authority, tithes and offerings,
and other unbiblical “heavy weights” put on folks shoulders.
The benefit of “Spiritual Abuse” is it drives you to Jesus.
And Jesus becomes “The Shephered and Bishop of my soul.”
Jesus came to heal the broken hearted and set the captives free.
I’ve also “minister healing” to “SpirituallyAbused” pastors,
“so called leaders,” who can’t do it anymore.
Trying to please the denominational leaders,
the congregation and it’s leaders, his family,
and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm?
Searving so many masters, that’s tough; Yes?
Jesus said, we can’t serve two masters.
Preaching every week… and it better be good, being the CEO,
the team leader, councilor, marrying, burying, smiley face. etc. etc.
And NONE of those things are found in scripture.
I agree when you say…
“Scriptural truth reigns regardless if God’s people are responding or not.”
My heart breaks for you, and I undertand what your saying,
when I read your post about how hard ministry is for you
“10 Reasons Why Sissies and Pastoral Ministry Are A Bad Mix”
and all of God’s people who assume the “Title” “Pastor/Leader.”
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
there is **Liberty.**
2Cor 3:17
{{{{{{??Jesus }}}}}} your yoke is easy and your burden is light.
Jared
You ask…
“do you belong to a local church?”
I am thankful you and I agree; “the Bible” is our ultimate guide. Yes?
IMO – Local Church? My Church? Your Church? Our Church?
Church membership? Pastoral Staff? Leadership team?
Can’t seem to be found in “the Bible,” in my antiquated KJV.
Isn’t it called “The Church of God?”
Isn’t it Jesus, who will “build” and “add to” “His Church?”
Isn’t it Jesus, who’s the head of the body,
(the ekklesia, the called out one’s), “The Church?”
Isn’t it Jesus, who shed “His Blood” to purchase “The Church of God?”
But, maybe we’re talking about – the church of man?
You go to a secular Government organization, IRS,
and ask permission to be called “Church,”
you fill out a form, called a 501 (c) 3.
If you’re approved, you become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation.
Does that sound like “The Church” that we find in “the Bible?”
Did Jesus shed “His Blood” for a building, an organization,
an institution, a denomination, a corporation?
Hmmm? Should we call a $ Corporation – “The Church of God?”
Love NOT the world and the things of the world…
Don’t know if you ever checked out the word “Church” or not but…
In the Bible, I found…
NO one ever “belonged” to “A Church.”
NO one ever went to “A Church.”
NO one ever joined “A Church.”
NO one ever “Tithed” to “A Church.”
NO one ever “Pastored” or “Led” “A Church.”
NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”
NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”
NO buildings with Steeples and crosses called “Church.”
NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
In the Bible, **you become** “The Church.” The ekklesia,
the called out one’s, the body of Christ, servants of Christ.
How can we belong to, or go to, something that **we are?**
It’s like you asking me… Do you belong to Amos?
**We are** the ekklesia of God, The Body of Christ, “The Church.”
{{{{{{ JESUS }}}}}} loves me this I know
Jared
I think when you say church and I say church…
It just ain’t the same thing.
In my experience, there are at least two different types of churches.
1 – “The Church of God.”
2 – the church of man.
The 501 (c) 3, non-prophet, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation.
Should we call a $ Corporation – “The Church of God?”
In my experience – there is a big difference between…
Jesus is the head of the body, (ekklesia, called out one’s), “The Church.”
God’s ekklesia, God’s called out one’s. The body of Christ, and man’s
attempt to produce a “Religious Sytsem” that takes and uses…
God’s name in vain.
1-“The Church of God,”
The ekklesia, the called out one’s, us, are “purchased” with His blood.
And we are now “members” of the body of Christ and Jesus is our head.
1-“The Church of Baptist”
Or any Religious $ Corporation, “purchases” with things of the world.
Security, friends, sense of belonging, guilt, law, entertainment.
“Purchases” pastors with power, profit, prestige, honor, glory, “Titles.”
2-“The Church of God” is built and added to by Jesus. It’s His body.
I will build my church… Matthew 16:18
the Lord added to the church daily those who should be saved. Acts 2:47
2-“The Church of Baptist” is built by man.
With programs, seminaries, crusades, revivals, guest speakers,
guilt and commitment sermons, bring your neighbor to church sermons,
tithes and offerings sermons, submission to authority sermons, etc.
3-“The kingdom of God” comes not with observation, it is “within.”
It is the rule, the reign, the dominion of God.
The goverment of God in one’s heart.
This government shall be upon Jesus’ shoulders. Isa 9:6
3- “The kingdom of Baptist” is “without,” where it can be “seen.”
**names on** church buildings, church signs, denominational schools,
credentials, diplomas, business cards, phone books, websites.
Written “I believes,” rules and regulations, how to dress, how to speak.
“…let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven;
and let us make us a name…” Gen 11:9
It is the rule, the reign, the dominion, the goverment of Baptists.
This government is upon Southern Baptists Conventions shoulders.
4- In “The Church of God” you serve “ONE” master, Jesus,
and “In Christ” we are ALL “ONE,” neither bond nor free, brethren.
Jesus is our shephered and we are “His people,” “His sheep.”
None call themselves leader or shepherd. All are “servants of Christ.”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
There is, One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd.
4- In “The Church of Baptist” you serve “many” masters.
You have hierarchy and “Titles” Not found in scripture.
Senior pastors Associate pastors, Youth pastors, Reverands,
board leaders, district leaders, denominational leaders. You have,
leaders – followers,
clergy – laity,
shepherds – sheep,
And you have separation. You have some lording it over others.
You have the beginning of spiritual abuse.
There are many voices – many shepherds – many leaders.
5- When “the Church of God” comes together, meets,
everyone can participate. And is expected to participate.
Everyone is needed to participate for the building up of the body.
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26
5- When “The Church of Baptist” meets,
only a few participate. Pastors, elders, “so called” leaders,
choirs, ushers, sunday school teachers, etc.
Most in this meeting are spectators, pew sitters, pew potatoes,
expected to pay, pray and obey.
Have they rejected God, that God should not “reign” over them?
Which “Church” looks more like “The Church” found in “the Bible?”
Love, I don’t have time to address all the issues that you bring up. It seems that you are on a quest “with Jesus” to understand the Scriptures apart from the theological tradition in which you belonged to at one point. The problem is that all you are doing is creating a new tradition. You are not restoring anything. For example,
you say, “NO one ever “belonged” to “A Church.”
If no one ever belonged to other believers, then how can biblical discipline be carried out? In order to be put out of the church, don’t you have to be in the church?
“NO one ever went to “A Church.”
Yes they did; they assembled daily and eventually on the Lord’s day; they “gathered together.”
NO one ever joined “A Church.”
Once again, how do you get put out of something that you were never a part of?
NO one ever “Tithed” to “A Church.”
People gave to a local church, as well as to the poor.
NO one ever “Pastored” or “Led” “A Church.”
Yes they did; what in the world are Timothy and Titus, Apollos, Barnabas, Paul, Peter, James, etc.? Your arguments for “no leadership” in the local assembly butchers the Scripture.
NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”
You are arguing from silence, which is a logical fallacy.
NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”
Once again, how can you be placed out of what you are not already in?
NO buildings with Steeples and crosses called “Church.”
You are correct about this; however, do you really think Christians that understand the Bible believe that the church is a building? You seem to be attacking a straw man here…
“NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews”‘
I wonder if there was anyone typing on the Internet in the early church? Preaching would take place at these gathered assemblies. Preaching is Paul’s dying treatise to young Timothy in 2 Timothy 4. The body clearly gathered to participate in the Lord’s Supper as well. Do you observe the Lord’s Supper with other believers in a local body?
You keep quoting the “traditions of men,” as you call them, but you are offering nothing in its place. Your arguments are not Scriptural, and you seem to keep pointing to yourself and Jesus as if you and Jesus are involved in the Christian life alone; when in biblical reality, when God saves someone, he place him or her in His church, and expects them to be part of a local assembly (church). Most of the New Testament is written to these local assemblies. If there were no gathered assemblies, then who is Paul writing to?
The danger with your interpretation is that you are interpreting apart from the iron of a local assembly. Romans 12 speaks of using our spiritual gifts to build up the local assembly (Paul is writing the church at Rome). The list of local assembly references can go on and on.
Instead of you reforming the “corrupt religious system,” you have instead opted to form your own. Instead of the Scriptures forming your “new” religious system, your own new traditions have. The bible is always correct, regardless how man butchers His system… the system must be redeemed instead of forming our own unbiblical system. You speak of “in my experience, eventually…” which means nothing compared to the religious system found in the Scriptures. You cannot pick and choose what you want to believe; pragmatism is not a sound hermeneutic.
If you’re going to make blanket statements about things that are unbiblical, please reference the obvious places in Scripture where others would argue against you, and tell me why we’re wrong.